The congregation of St. Victor’s Church in West Hollywood was met with both sides of the argument on Proposition 8. The Church is hosting Yes on Prop 8 tables at both the street and parking lot entrance. This church, which boasts its inclusiveness and diversity on its web site, is actively recruting parishioners to vote for discrimination. In fact, the Sunday bulletin included a one-page insert on the measure sponsored by the California Catholic Conference. Many members were surprised to see the church taking such an active stance on a political issue. Separation of Church and State? I think not.
Standing in front of the church making sure that the Equality for All side was represented we were welcome with only positive feedback, some waves of support, and a few thumbs up by passersby and parishioners alike. Within 24 hours of our first posting signs were posted around West Hollywood asking the community for a boycott of St. Victor’s and their discriminatory practices.
Walking WeHo 
I joined Sam this morning with No on 8 signs out front of St. Victors. I was very nervous as I’m not typically the placard holding, protesting type. I have to say that the response from folks entering the church for service was pleasantly surprising. We got a lot of ‘thumbs up’, a number of folks saying thank you and a few happy car horn blowers.
A woman approached me just before the noon mass service and said that she was really glad we were there. She said she was on the way to drop her daughter off at the No on 8 offices to staff the phone banks and she herself was off to the valley for an Iraq war protest.
I’m glad we were there today and will commit to being there every Sunday the “Yes on 8” table is set up until the election.
No scientific poll of course, but it seemed that most folks were surprised their church had allowed the Yes on 8 to set up. But we can’t let our guard down and need to remind everyone to vote!
proud of you for taking it to the streets sammy. thank you.
Again, I wish I was there with you today. They should be ashamed to allow this on their property when they claim to be so inclusive.
I read the church’s website today and I’m outraged!
I want the chocolate out of my peanut butter and I want “morality” out of my legislation!! Equal rights only please! I hope they take a closer look at what they are doing and how many will suffer with their guidance.
It pisses me off that they only way they can get people to vote Yes is by lying — saying that if Prop 8 doesn’t pass, teachers will be forced to teach children horrible things. Lies! It disheartening to see churches lobbying for discrimination and hate.
Good article today in the LA Times on a Catholic priest who spoke out:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaypriest13-2008oct13,0,2646781.story
Shouldn’t they be paying taxes if they’re actively involved in a political campaign? At least put some of the Pope’s better rings on ebay.
Religion is on both sides of the gay marriage issue. I think it’s OK to blur the lines between church & state as long as it’s my church (gay-affirming MCC) making the rules. MCC is campaigning for No on Prop 8.
It is that WITCH Marianne! She has been the reason why over 20 families have left. WE DO NOT ALL BELIEVE AS SHE DOES.
IT was because of her that our choir director left. It was because of her that people who have worshipped at St. Victor’s for decades have had it and left.
It is her we have caught leaving the parish house at wee hours of the morning, leaving some people to believe that she is more than just a member of the church.
We have asked the Monsignor to ask her to leave, but she has a hold on him. She gives our family a bad name.
“I’ve got nothing against G-d, it’s his fan club I can’t stand”
Yeesh guys, you want to boycott a group of Catholics who (surprise) vote like Catholics and express Catholic opinions on Catholic property? Give it a rest.
Why hinder the good things they do for the poor and sick of the neighborhood with your ridiculous boycott?
GMD, you’re so right! In fact prior to desegregation why didn’t we just leave all the southern states alone. I mean, overall they did so much good… why did we protest to force them to integrate schools? You know you’re a moron right?
Even more exciting—who is this Marianne woman???
So GMD –
Please help me clarify your point, because I genuinely would like to understand where you’re coming from.
Do you believe if a person does some good in one area and then does something hateful in another area, the good overrides that hate?
Personally I believe that a church (or any organization) that promotes acceptance of ALL should be held accountable to their own word. Otherwise it makes them appear to be misleading and dishonest, and I don’t think that’s the message that a church would want to send.
VOTE YES is asking for donations to support discrimination, and they’re doing that on church property. How about they take that money and use it to help MORE poor and sick people instead of using it to fuel a cause of hate? And to do so with the support of a church?
Maybe you’re comfortable “giving it a rest” and turning a blind eye when you see injustice and hypocrisy, but I’m not.
BV is absolutely right. This church and others like it enjoy a tax exempt status. Their participation in the political process jeopardizes that status. Is the city of West Hollywood going to involve itself in this abuse of tax free status?
Voting Yes on Prop 8 is a vote for discrimination. Discrimination against a particular group in our society. St. Victor’s website states that they are there to “seek and serve those that are outcast” and their church does not discriminate, because God does not discriminate. And that is the problem (well, besides the obvious one that Prop 8 is just plain WRONG!) Saying one thing and doing another. Actions of pure hypocrisy. This church claims to be here for the community of West Hollywood, accepts tithes and offerings from members of the community, and then urges members to discriminate against those very same members.
Okay people – let’s look at the real issue here…the Church (not St. Victors) teaches that homosexual behavior is a mortal sin and we’re mad that St. Victors – a parish that strives to be inclusive – is allowing a prop to be displayed that is against same sex unions??? It makes complete sense to me that they would allow it. Just because they welcome homosexuals into the church to worship and participate in the Eucharist does not mean that they stand against Rome…it means that, even as Christ did, they welcome all sinners – yes, all of us – to come in and be moved by the Holy Spirit. As for separation of Church and State – please. Do you know the true definition of this? It merely states that America is not allowed to IMPOSE one religion on people and condemn those who are not believers (in short). Our government and country have done quite well to ensure that believers of all sorts can go their churches or temples or synagogues or local centers and worship the way they see fit. But when you set out to try and change the definition of something in the legal system??? Is that not the secular trying to impose their “religious” definitions onto those that have practiced the sanctity of marraige for all these years? So I say – have your rights, your equality, for all the non-married issues through an attorney. Just like those who are heterosexual have to do when they don’t believe in marraige but want to include their significant others in their living wills, trusts, etc…. My gosh – the trouble and money we tax payers have gone to in trying to just let marraige be between and man and a woman! We could’ve probably paid for A LOT if not ALL of the attorneys fees to get it all sorted out for the “no on prop 8-ers” and we could move on already. Or I have an idea…pick a different word and call it that – or make up a word and get legislation to pass the laws backing the union that way. Leave everyone else alone.
And a note to Beckie…God DOES discriminate. Or do you not believe in the 10 commandments, or venial/mortal sin, or Heaven and Hell? He is all forgiving yes, but He also lays down very specific laws for His creation that must not be broken or must be repented to enter into Heaven…
And of course St Victors takes tithing from its members. No priest can stand up there and look into the crowd at man or woman and know for certain if each individual has repented or confessed their sins. It’s up to EACH INDIVIDUAL to have a right conscience before participating the the mass. The church doesn’t MAKE YOU TITHE OR MAKE YOU TAKE COMMUNION…you have to examine your own conscience and take responsibility for your own behavior. Who are the hypocrites here…St Victors, or those of us who attend mass and walk up to Christs table to receive communion even though He’s not important to us to be recollected or absolved of our sins before we do so. Just because you go to church doesn’t mean you’re worthy of God’s forgiveness – we all have to remember that. We all have to mean it when we say we love him. So don’t call St. Victors hypocritical – it’s opened its doors to all – what you do when you walk in there is between you and God. You would call them JUDGMENTAL AND EVIL FOR FOLLOWING CHRIST’S TEACHINGS IN LOVING ALL BUT ALSO REPRIMANDING THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY GOD’S LAWS? WHO’S THE HYPOCRITE?
Local governments which are obviously not churches call them “Marriage Licenses”. They issue MARRIAGE LICENSES. Religious institutions long ago lost ‘ownership’ of the word marriage. No, we won’t call it anything else. Marriage is a right of all consenting adults regardless of their sex.
Before you attack Beckie specifically you may want to note that she was quoting St. Victor’s website directly. Here is the link where they say that God does not discriminate:
http://www.saintvictor.org/home.html
Next time you may want to check the sources before you get lost in your rant.
The Catholic Church enjoys tax exempt status because it is (supposed to be) apolitical. If they’re going to start taking stands on political issues, then they’d better start paying their fair share of taxes.
I’d love to know if this is going on again. I’ll happily join the protest against those who would so blatantly promote bigotry in Jesus’ name.
You people who are “no on prop 8ers” are really ignorant in your knowledge of the law and what hypocrisy is. What position do you expect St. Victor’s to have? Do you think they would stand against the Teachings that they follow. That would be real hypocrisy!! You act as if you didn’t know what position they would hold. And then get mad at it when it doesn’t jive with your point of view. Oh I know, they all of the sudden got evolved and smart and took 2000 years of church history and all of anthropological history and threw it away because we only just now figured out that marriage includes everyone! Why just man and woman? Why not men and women or three men or three woman and a man or whatever. There is a logical conclusion in what happens when the historical and anthropological idea of marriage is thrown out the window… society is destroyed.
And to the bigots out of my neighborhood…Just b/c we are religious does not mean we are not human and do not have a point of view. Also all of the members pay taxes, are we not allowed to have an opinion based upon the Truth of Christ? Or are you a bigoted tax payer?
Friend of Jesus.. would Jesus leave a comment like you did on this site?? I don’t think so…
Why couldn’t THIS church take no position? Based on my experience on Sunday there were more than a few members of the congregation that were not happy to have a political position at their place of worship!
Okay Brian. I have to inform you that I have been on the St. Victor website many times and know my sources…thanks for your concern. Here’s the difference between what you read on there and what I read…I read the word discriminate in context here. They are discussing who they (st. victor) serves as a parish…the poor, the outcast, etc…. Meaning those who need a hand up, a helping hand and caring and loving hand. Christ’s hand. Did you bother to read the 1st paragraph?? You have to understand that St. Victor, like most churches, would never openly discriminate – do you understand that they would be closed – the Church, or any church would be scorned? What they are saying is what I already expressed which is that they’ve opened their doors to all – they don’t stand at the entrance and look you over or ask you your socioeconomic position or your sexual orientation before they let you in! If anything, I’m surprised my straight single or married friends don’t feel somewhat discriminated against there (but they don’t!) I mean, I noticed by the woman’s bathroom, just a couple of years ago, they finally put a changing table there for moms. I mean – do we openly welcome those who are traditionally married? I think we do. But just b/c we are blessed or burdened (depending on how you look at it) with a homosexual orientation doesn’t mean it gives us the right to force them to change the sanctity of marriage that is spelled out in the BIBLE. Maybe you all should check your sources for that. It’s funny that you’re all bent out of shape that a CATHOLIC CHURCH would allow itself to be Catholic in its teachings. In response to Ted Smith…the Church is allowing a pro-prop 8 table to be there – it’s not parked in the middle of your street. It’s on CHURCH PROPERTY. They have a CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTION TO BE THERE. It is after all a religious tenet of ours as Catholics…. You all want to boycott your church…that’s so weird. That’s like being protestant. So why be Catholic if you don’t follow the teachings? I think you’re discriminating against St. Victors b/c they’re allowing a stance to be taken that is in line with ROME.
I love how all the anti prop 8 people are suddenly experts on what Jesus would and wouldn’t say or do. I know that Jesus wouldn’t bless a “gay marriage” as is evident in the Bible and 2000 years or church teaching. You all use Jesus words or how He would act in defense of your position against His followers. That is just lacking of any logic. Jesus said “I did not come to bring unity but to bring division.”
Really? Spelled out in the Bible? The Bible also spells out instruction on topics such as slavery and murder, but I certainly hope that you are intelligent enough not to support those ideals.
And I do adore how you keep referring to ROME, but what we’re discussing here is what is happening in the USA. And in the USA, there is to be a separation of church and state.
I agree with Sam. This church should take NO position.
Oh… and be careful Give Me A Break. I fear that your snide comments and dripping condescension may go against the teachings of your Bible.
Have a blessed day. :o)
“Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body.”
– 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
MUST READ!
What Separation of Church and State REALLY Means.
What the Pope says about Church and State:
“The just ordering of society and the State is a central responsibility of politics. . . . The State may not impose religion, yet it must guarantee religious freedom and harmony between the followers of different religions. For her part, the Church, as the social expression of Christian faith, has a proper independence and is structured on the basis of her faith as a community which the State must recognize. The two spheres are distinct, yet always interrelated.”
-Deus Caritas Est
“The Lord God said: ‘It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a SUITABLE partner for him.’ The Lord God then built up into a woman the rib he had taken from the man. That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.”
Genesis 2:18,22,24
“Jesus said in reply, ‘Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ and said ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? Therefore, what God has joined together, NO HUMAN BEING must separate.”
Matthew 19:4-6
“Because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.”
1 Corinthians 7:2
“A man and a woman united in marriage, together with their children, form a family. This institution is prior to any recognition by public authority, which has an obligation to recognize it. It should be considered the normal reference point by which the different forms of family relationship are to be evaluated.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 2202
“Sexuality is ordered to the conjugal love of MAN and WOMAN. In marriage the physical intimacy of the spouses becomes a sign and pledge of spiritual communion.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 2360
Brian B
your hatred for what is good and right is so apparent. Your hatred for Jesus and His followers is crystal clear. You don’t understand what what the clause is regarding non establishment. The so called seperation of church and state is a radical hippie 60’s idea that grew out of hatred for religion by the hippie communists of that era. It is obvious that is the political realm in which you operate. The non establishment clause which you- like all the other religion haters- like to call separation of church and state prevents the government to establish a religion NOT FROM RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS TO HAVE AN OPINION. Also the church in order to remain tax exempt CANNOT OFFICIALLY BACK A POLITICAL PARTY DURING CHURCH SERVICES. BTW, support of prop 8 is NOT backing a political party it is a cultural issue and they are certainly allowed to voice their opinion. You like all the other pro homosexual marriage folks are the real haters and want to silence -like any good communists- real diversity of thought and opinions that differ from yours. I have a feeling that if St. Victors either kept silent or supported your position you would have no problem with that. No you would have said how right the are. YOU HYPOCRITE. YOU ARE THE REAL HYPOCRITES. I AM CATHOLIC AND I HAVE A RIGHT TO MY BELIEFS. HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE IS WRONG. HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY AND THE LIFESTYLE IS PART OF THE CULTURE OF DEATH AND IS MORTALLY SINFUL. IF YOU WANT TO LIVE THAT LIFE SO BE IT. THAT IS YOUR CHOICE. BUT PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT IN THIS FREE COUNTRY TO HAVE A RELIGION AND THEIR RELIGION INFORM THEM. In fact RELIGION IS SPECIFICALLY PROTECTED IN THE CONSTITUTION AND SO IS YOUR ABILITY TO HATE GOD.
okay Brian B. I am not going to go back and forth with you as it’s apparent that one of us is educated about the facts of why St. Victor is allowing a prop-8 table and it’s apparent that one of us is dripping with hatred of what the Church teaches. Are you even Catholic by the way? If not, why does it bother you so the goings on at St. Victor? Why don’t you go downtown and talk to the Bishop about it? Or perhaps go to the Mormon Church, the Jewish temples or any other denomination that promotes traditional marriage between a man and a woman?
As for my “Bible” (as you refer, which leads me to believe your bible is ???), indeed it refers to slavery and murder and a fool I am not. There is an inherent difference between the creation of man and woman as co-creators and the effects of real sin in the world that has ushered in everything from slavery and murder to those sins which are considered venial. Brian, you obviously don’t understand that just because St Victor is in America it still has allegiance to Rome – where the Pope is…or did you think perhaps we should annoint a new pope? Perhaps of your picking? Perhaps one from America? I think not. And rest assured Brian B, being careful not to offend those who are attacking the Church’s teachings is not my stance. It’s all too often the stance of people who don’t understand the actual teachings or who want to be liked by everyone…ie: political correctness. Did Christ not rebuke those merchants in the temple? If I did not speak out against those trying to attack and tear apart the foundation of family and one of the foundations of this great nation then I indeed would be a hypocrite and offensive to God. I know for certain that I have daily offended God and that I’m not perfect in the following the teachings in the bible. But I will not pussyfoot around and let the likes of these venomous comments about St. Victor (who has made a place for all of us to receive Christ) take away from the truths of Her faith. I also know that I’m grateful for the sacraments because I can examine my own conscience before God and come to Him for forgiveness through reconciliation.
I will sign off knowing that you “adore” my references to Rome…oh…oops, or was that you being snide and condescending???
Thank you for your blessings for my day – although I’m wondering if that too was snide. I, on the other hand, hope you have a day that is in the presence of Christ and His Spirit and perhaps you might want to sit with Him in front of the Blessed Sacrament. It’s quite a peaceful experience. May you also be blessed.
It’s interesting that I’m accused of hate, yet I see so many with your beliefs typing in capital letters with a lot of exclamation points. You jump right into the victim role so easily, and why shouldn’t you? You do it oh so well. In fact, I can’t stop laughing after reading what you wrote.
People who quote scriptures in defense of hatred are laughable at best. There are so many verses that you forget which speak of murder, slavery, and hatred. You can’t pick and choose which verses you want to live by, and which you want to pretend aren’t in the same book.
You know, you just can’t reason with the unreasonable.
Thank you Brian! I appreciate that you recognized I was referring to St. Victor’s own website and how they described themself.
This issue is LESS about same sex marriage and MORE about civil, fundamental and equal rights under the law for ALL Americans.
It was not that long ago that women did not have the right to vote. That African Americans had to drink out of separate drinking fountains, swim in separate pools and sit in the back of the bus. That the interacially married were outcasts in society.
I am appalled each time I drive by a church and see YES on 8 signs posted all over their property (primarily Catholic and LDS church properties with a few fundamental Christian churches thrown in for fun.) How far are we willing to go with this blurring of the line of separation between church and state ? It looks to me as if there is no longer a line.
HOMOSEXUALITY IS AN ABOMINATION .
BTW Brain B the same can be said about you being unreasonable.
YOUR INTOLERANT POSITIONS ARE AS OBVIOUS AS YOUR HATRED FOR GOD AND RELIGION
ONE DAY YOU WILL DIE LIKE EVERYONE
AND WHEN YOU DO I HOPE YOU ARE IN FRIENDSHIP WITH GOD. BUT YOU PROBABLY DON’T BELIEVE IN HIM.
JUST BECAUSE YOU DON’T DOESN’T MEAN HE DOESN’T EXIST
Beckie
If that is the crux of your argument then that is fine – but Catholics have a right to their position as well.
As far as “Separation of Church and State” see what that means. It is called the anti establishment clause and prevents The Government from establishing a national religion. NOT FROM RELIGION (READ CHURCHES AND THEIR MEMBERS) PARTICIPATING IN THE POLITICAL PROCESS. St. Victor has a right – a fundemental right to have whatever sign it wants in support of its beleifs regarding present cultural issues. May it not have anti-abortion signs either? What about the eqaul rights of the unborn? JESUS IS THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER.
REPENT AND TURN TO GOD FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND
Brian your hard heartedness is impenetrable and sad. What happened in your childhood that caused you to be so intolerant, hateful, and sarcastic. Their are some very wonderful priests you could talk to, that would be able to help you get over these issues so that you may see life a little brighter and through the love of Christ.
You’re right Brian – you can’t pick and choose which verses you want to live by…seems to me we all do that though – don’t we. Victims? I think the one’s who are crying about St. Victor Church’s right to support a core belief are playing victims here. This whole banter is like trying to explain to a 3 year old that their temper tantrums will not change the fact that you’re the parent and you try to show them tough love by guiding them towards obedience. I won’t have this debate anymore as it’s clear that Beckie, Brian, et al are truly not informed enough to speak of why or why not St. Victor Church can be/does support prop 8. Beckie – my suggestion to you is when you drive by these churches…don’t read the banners. That’s what I do when I drive through West Hollywood and Hollywood and see our degrading society on the billboards…just a suggestion.
Everyone: Thank you for your comments. All are welcome unless they contain profanity or directed personal attacks. In that case they will be deleted! It appears that the personal attacks are begining. Let’s try to stay on message. My point has been that this church could have chosen to abstain. This church did not have to host any political position or put materials in their bulletin. Many people of faith prefer to keep their place of worship just that. A place free of politics or positions. Just faith.
Signs Posted that read:
“Yes on 8 = Religious Freedom”
What?
The church can’t abstain! It has a moral obligation to teach the Truth. This issue is not a political position it is a position on the culture and the Church must take a stand. Being silent is just as wrong as supporting homosexual “marriage”. It is a wholly illogical point of view. Listen, it is the church and we all know what the Church teaches. There should be no surprise nor outrage. Asking the church to remain silent on this issue is the same as asking her to remain silent on abortion.
Keeping your faith only in church defeats the point of faith totally. There is a battle for souls and the battle iof good and evil. We cannot and will not support evil and we believe that supporting homosexual “marriage” is an evil that we must take a stand against. Marriage is between a man and a woman.
The tactics of being silenced will no longer work.
We have a right and we will speak our faith and beliefs
Beckie
Does it really need to be spelled out for you. You are the one who keeps pulling out Sep of Ch and St.
Religion has a right and a duty to speak out on this issue.
You want to quell them You want to shut them up with these silencing tactics.
Your last comments cut both ways:
The tactics of being silenced will no longer work.
We have a right and we will speak our faith and beliefs.
Humanity and Justice has a right and duty to speak out on this issue as well.
As Americans, we have been given certain fundamental rights, priveleges and freedoms with our citizenship. And while those freedoms should be for ALL Americans, they are not.
Disagreeing with or opposing the fundamental rights of others, whether you base that opposition on religious grounds or other reasons, is not justification for discrimination against those you may disagree with.
And although there are some that may disagree with me, an info booth at a church that is handing out one sided political literature and a church bulletin with Yes on 8 inserts calling for their membership to discriminate against American citizens, is not appropriate. Especially when much of what is being published by that campaign is filled with scare tactics and lies.
The signs and literature should read:
Yes on 8 = DISCRIMINATION, BIGOTRY, HATE
Beckie –
That is an excellent point. Irrespective of anyone’s religious beliefs, I think it’s safe to say that the church does not condone lying. So let’s remove the emotion and resort to pure hard facts.
The advertisements for “Vote Yes” are full of lies. So no matter which side you are on, take the time to review what is being said, filter through all of the lies in advertising, and recognize the facts.
And since the church is the hot topic in here, let’s start off by addressing some false information that is being presented by the “Vote Yes” side:
The Yes Campaign on Prop 8 wants you to believe that Churches will lose their tax exemption status if they deny a same sex couple the right to legally wed in their church. They allege that the IRS will penalize them in the process, thus, losing their tax exemption status.
This is entirely false.
Churches are considered private institutions and are given latitude on who they choose to marry. Civil marriage ceremonies will continue to be a function of the courts.
There… no opinions in that… all facts.
And the fact is, “Vote Yes” is using a campaing filled with lies.
Fundamental Rights: This is then what we are voting for (BTW it was already voted on by the State.) Homosexual relations do not follow natural law therefore are not accorded the same dignity as natural relations. But here is the rub: The homosexual advocates will never see our point of view and we will not see yours’. We have history, and anthropology on our side. If you are homosexual then by all means be one live your life etc. But do not try and say that your “marriage” is the same as one that produces children and is a building block of society. And do not try and redefine what marriage is. Homosexuals have never until now even cared about so-called gay marriage and have done what most people who don’t believe in marriage do – create trusts and legal partnerships. So this “marriage” act is something that is much more sinister – It is to redefine family and marriage and further the breakdown of society into moral relativism and sloth.
NO on 8 = hate, and evil.
The YES campaign wants marriage to remain what it has always been: An institution between and man and a woman with the natural byproduct of their shared love being children.
Homosexual lifestyle = a lifestyle of death
Oh, and how can the church take no “side” on what God says is right and wrong? Like it or not people, God says lesbians and gays are wrong. IT’S A CHOICE you make.
Personal and mean-spirited attacks will not be posted on this site. lively debate acceptable.
Again, profanity and personal attacks will not be approved to be posted.
Kaseygirl, go read all of Leviticus where you get that homosexuality is wrong (Leviticus 20:13). Leviticus also says:
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).
Don’t cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
And my favorites all from (Leviticus 19:19): Don’t let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle: Don’t have a variety of crops on the same field;
Don’t wear clothes made of more than one fabric.
So tell me, how exactly are you deciding what to follow and what not to follow?
Quick, pull your kids out of public school… the California Teachers Association just upped their donation to NO ON 8 to $1 million dollars. haha! Keep preaching you’re really helping our cause.
are you feeling a bit like a babysitter sam? the children can’t follow the rules and play in the sandbox nicely????
This is like talking to 3 year olds. There have been no personal attacks. Sometimes the truth is hard to take.
What you have done is turn this into a politically correct bag of nonsense where you are castrating real debate. This is a divisive issue and you should let people speak without censorship. But I forget you are all left thinking progressives…. read communists. I am sure that this is somehow some sort of slur
Truth?
I haven’t seen much of that on the “Yes to Prop 8” ads, have you?
I’m still waiting for someone on the YES side to respond with why they believe it is acceptable that their ads are full of blatant lies.
Yes, censorship when it is a directed personal attack on a comment. And yes, censorship when profanity is used. As you can see both sides have been represented here. Even the ones that have been on the other side of my personal view. Only the comments that use profanity and directed personal attacks have been declined. Keep it clean and keep it focused on the issues and you will be posted.
http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid63808.asp
So let me get this straight. Brian, people like you are fighting to make it legal to basically take God out of marriage and let homosexuals marry. So, as a gay man, why is it that you aren’t married? It is a legitimate question. How can you fight for something you, yourself aren’t a role model for?
Shawna, come on…how can Brian get anything straight??? (JOKE INTENDED!)
Perhaps he has not been asked. Perhaps he has not found the person he wants to be in a covenant relationship with for the rest of his life. Perhaps Brian is not married for any one of the same reasons that his hetero counterparts are not married. I know plenty of single ‘straight’ adults that for one reason or another are not married.
I think we can and do in fact fight for many things that we are not personally experiencing. I am neither gay nor unmarried, yet I am fighting for the rights of the gay community to be married if they so choose.
Shawna –
That is certainly a fair question, and I will be glad to respond.
First, to be clear I’m not asking to take God out of marriage. I am simply supporting equal rights, which doesn’t take anything out of anyone else’s marriage. Despite the arguments that are presented here, marriage is not only for Christians or Catholics, or any religion for that matter. As Ted previously pointed out, local governments which are not the church process “marriage licenses”. In fact, one of my best friends just obtained her marriage license yesterday, and she confirmed that at no time in this process was she asked about her beliefs in God. So as far as the current legal process, there is no interjection of God in that government office. In no way does that imply or control how God is brought into anyone’s specific ceremony, which is fair as it should NOT do that. That is a personal matter for the parties entering that marriage to address as they see fit. So again I must be clear, I’m not asking to take God out of anyone’s marriag. I’m simply asking for the same equal right to be extended to all citizens and all human beings.
I’m afraid that you may be inserting your personal religious views into the law, which should not be the case. Am I inserting MY personal views as well? Absolutely! But here’s the difference… my views are focused on equality and the law which governs ALL, and not someone’s personal religious view which governs only some.
Now to address your question, why do you assume that I am not married? This has never been asked or addressed in this blog. I did not mention this as the purpose of this blog was to address an issue, and not people personally, but since you asked in a respectful manner I will certainly respond.
I currently live in Connecticut where gay marriage was just made legal last week. So might I marry? Well now I certainly can if we choose to do so! I am in an 8-year monogomous relationship with my loving partner. I have a very close-knit family and an amazing circle of supportive and loving friends who recognize us with the same dignity and respect as any other couple out there.
So if I’m from CT, what does this have to do with me? Well, this has to do with ALL of us really. What is happening with Prop 8 could potentially take away a civil right that was already given to the people. I strongly believe that taking away ANYONE’S civil rights is dangerous…. no… MORE than dangerous as it sets a precedent for the future.
If this passes, then what is next? What civil right that you enjoy may be taken from you? And how would you feel knowing that you supported the precedent that made it all possible?
Shawna – again I thank you for your respectful question. I appreciate that you raised a thought-provoking point.
Bernard, don’t you just love Levitical law?
Everyone…
Bible Translation Trivia:
The term “homosexual” was not used in the english bible translations until the 1950s. The modern english bible translators used the word “homosexual” because there was NO ENGLISH WORD that would translate from the hebrew and greek manuscripts written by the original authors. No english word that would translate, so they plucked the word “homosexual” out and inserted it. Please keep in mind what our society was like in the 1950s…it was a Father Knows Best, Ozzie and Harriet, I Love Lucy PERFECT world. The homosexual in the community was not to be seen or heard because that would not fit the ‘perfect’ image of Donna Reed, Leave it to Beaver etc. The bible translators used their own bias against homosexuality to translate the bible. And we are expected to accept it as absolute. Don’t take my word for it, study modern bible translation for yourself.
According to the new testament, Jesus Christ himself makes NO mention whatsoever of homosexuality.
The Apostle Paul wrote “In Christ there is no Jew nor Greek; no male nor female…”
As a FORMER gay parishoner of St. Victors, I’m curious about the vocal supporters of Yes on Prop 8 citing the 2000 years of history and teaching of the Church: Do you not remember when your Church also forced Galileo to stand before the inquisition and recant his belief that the Earth went around the sun? Could they possibly be WRONG on this too?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/10/st-victors-cath.html
I’m a hetro Catholic in the West Hollywood area.
I’m planning to vote against prop 8 because I think a lot of my gay friends have as much right to marriage as I do.
I don’t know how to say this any simpler, but you actions make me really question that & push me in the direction for voting for it.
Sorry that you feel that way, Bill. You’re right, your gay friends do have as much right to marry as you.
The position that I took was to be at the church making sure that the No On 8 side was represented as the church chose to actively promote the Yes. Can I suggest that you discuss it with your gay friends?
To Bill:
What actions are you referring to that might push you in the direction of voting for discrimination? That would cause you to vote for rights to be stripped from a certain group of citizens? What could possibly push you to vote for a proposition that is based on lies, uses fear tactics and promotes hatred?
I do hope you talk to your gay friends and really listen to what they have to say on this very important issue.
Does this parish still believe in Yes on Prop 8?